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I did search for 415 and got a few threads but none really conclusive. I will search EZ Soy though and read those.

I agree 100% that a melt pool of 1.5" is way over wicked, what I was saying is that when it is that way, it throws well. I wick for a 1/2" mp at 4 hours 1/3" during long burns (over six hours)

I agree Made in America is a very powerful thing, and I proudly proclaim it at every show I do, and all over my website.

As for the all American, with c3 I cannot say that it supports American Farmers, and cargill, as a company has some questionable business practicies. Especially in their palm production in central America, they claim they are committed to sustainable palm production but it is PR. They (allegedly) take part in corrupt activities to push out their competition, and re-zone protected area to expand their oil production down there while keeping a "sustainable" label. This is something the buyers, I know are against so with Golden Brands making their soy from US grown soy, it is the best option. This is why I personally won't make products with high percentages of palm products in it. I know most of Cargill's sources are from the US and Mexico. From what I understand very little comes from central America or protected areas. I live in a very progressive area, Cargill and Monsanto are well known. I sell a lot of tarts because they are made exclusively out of US grown soy (464/PB blend) and I offer re-fills on shells, and will recycle them for people. I also give them other ways to use the shells which sparks interest also.

Regardless I believe I will go "back to the drawing board" and see how to push this project forward. Thanks all!

I use 464 and have never had issues with HT in any of my candles. Some may not not you down on the floor but they do throw.

Do you double wick? I noticed at your show table they were wide, and I believe I remeber seeing a double wick. I have found with some scents double wicked candles throw better (the movement of the wax helps it) I wonder if I can double up to get them to push some scent out.

You know I was just thinking... all I'm looking for is a nice top when they are out for sale... I wonder if I can just pour, cool, and re-pour (like 1/8") with 464 (which has excellent cold throw normally) This way I could have the even, smooth tops but the performance of 415. Still all American.

Beth, I have considered this, and I have done c3 and 4630 in a 90/10 ratio to control morphing, but switched when I went dyeless, I liked it, it burnt well it would probably do the same thing here... and 90% American grown is not bad, I think that could work.

I could just scrap it all though and just say that is American Made, because it is... just with wax farmed in central and south America. Or mix in like 10% 415 and say made with American Soy...

The ones up top seem to be directed more towards c3, I have or have tried probably 50% of those scents and they for the most part work fantastically in c3 but fall flat in 464 unless they are overwicked. With a 1.5" melt pool they do throw but the 1/2-1/3" melt pool does nothing... I guess I will just pour the whole line and work from there. It is daunting to attempt to test 130 scents... I only want around 25 strong ones for the all American line. It will be going into a small shop that is all American made stuff, from gadgets to clothing. It is an awesome idea and will be set up in a high traffic area around the beginning of the year.

As for 415, the sweat happened at around 80º while at a show. I will start again with 415, I guess my reservations are on how they actually store. I just don't want it to go to the sandy looking top like you said Maybe I will test some 464 415 mixes? idk. I guess I should budget some $ and get testing. I'll figure something out.

So I have a case of 464 that I bought when I first started making candles, I wasn't incredibly impressed with the HT in candles so I shelved it and used it in tarts. Long story short I want to learn it a little more about it especially the fragrance oils that will 'work' with it. I have around 6 that I know work in it and they are

CS Cinnamon Buns

CS Strudel & Spice

CS Very Vanilla

CS Pumpkin Pie (this one is light but I have only tested it in a 2" wide candle)

Natures Garden Apple Butter Caramel

Natures Garden Autumn Magic

It seems like the strongest bakery scents work but the florals really don't. One of the reasons I want to do this is I am interested in doing an All American line, Golden Foods is all American grown soy, and C-3 is not. Ecosoya is also US grown but frankly I have not gotten any fo to really throw well in any of their products.

I was thinking of going with 415 but there is so little information about 415 out there I honestly do not know where to start. I could treat it like 464/444 but the one candle I did actually make with it (with CD wicks) it was inconsistent and it sweat FO at 6% mixing FO at 175 and pouring at 160. Tops were OK, a little gun work but nothing too bad. I did notice it did that 'growing' thing soy does occasionally.

I use 8 ounce tins and 24 ounce apothecary jars, though I am considering eliminating the larger jars and keeping it down to 3" or less so I can keep them all single wicked.

Any help would be appreciated, here or in PM.

Thanks!

The wally world warmers are different, they use a halogen light I believe which produces more heat and is directional. Scentsy holds at around 130, the halogen ones warm to 180 or more. This being said if your wax melts (and throws) at around 125 they will work.

The answer is... it depends. If it is a high temp warmer (like candlewarmers.com) the feet are not an issue. For JKL and other low temp warmers it is an issue.

As for shallow or deep the answer is just as easy... it depends. Shallow tins melt faster than the deeper tins but it also depletes the scent faster.

I go by the 10x system. Whatever the table cost I want at least 10x that much in sales. $15 table - 150. $500 table $5,000. For higher price shows I like to get 10 but will settle for 6-7x depending on the distance from my home.

Palm and Soy undergo hydrogenation, its not toxic. Paraffin is a byproduct of petroleum, but when wicked correctly it does burn clean. Everybody is jumping on the toxic wagon because the soot from paraffin (and poorly wicked natural candles, but to a lesser extent) has carcinogens in it, just like cigarette smoke, or the smoke from a camp fire. When burned correctly it reduces this dramatically, but a lot of people don't burn it correctly. I won't burn it though unless I am testing another company's candle. When I burn most container blend paraffin I get itchy eyes.

I agree they are scare tactics but sometimes you need that in business.

So I was wondering how much of your business is local vs online sales? I am about 90% local and I kind of like that, I was wondering though if I should focus a little more on internet sales? Is this about normal?

How about JBNCandles?

I have not tried them but Nature's Garden has just duped a couple Lush Fragrances and will have them up in a few weeks. From what I hear they are dead on.

I was actually thinking of this very idea and I was working on getting a plan in order. It would be something like a co-op. We'd need to form a plan and we'd have to have some rock solid structure.

Normally the patent holder sends a cease and desist letter before legal action as it is very very costly to pursue legal action and takes a very long time, normally years. You can have a patent on just about anything, normally techniques. Trademarks are for the look of something that indicates the source of the product, a label, or style. Copyrights are normally for written works. Slogans can be trademarked and copyrighted. Trademarks are use it or loose it. Copyrights go on well past the author's lifetime. Patents are for the inventors of a technique or new style and are only valid for 20 years.

Some folks continually chase their tails trying to "make" every FO work in their wax. To heck with that! There are too many wonderful FOs out there and different sources for FOs to stay stuck on a temperamental one. When one is new, this may be a tough call, but once you understand wicking and what works best for your container, stick with it. If you have trouble with too many FOs, you might want to test a different wick at that point. HTH

I think I am going to try and embody this. I have so many different sets, even how far apart to wick if they are double or triple wicked. With over 300 scents tested (and around 120 I found acceptable) this is a LOT of information to remember or even have written down. Its beginning to not become worth it. I have to say around 80 of them are all the 'same' wick/jar/concentration formula. Maybe I'll just keep it there and release the rest.

Well it is sort of a normal can, it was what she called her cans. When I saw them I was like "Why would someone do that, it doesn't look safe."

Another story from today. I was at a show and I had all my stuff out and right behind me I had a Scentsy rep. My experiences with Scentsy reps have been less than great, but I wandered over and said I'm just bein' nosy, and picked up the scentsy travel thing and was smelling it. We got to talking and I actually had a good conversation with her. We talked about tarts and warmers and candles and what paraffin was and how it differs from soy. She came over smelled some of my stuff and I actually got a bar from her. She had retired bars for $4 so I found one I kind of loved - Fried Ice Cream to run some tests. We also traded cards.

I noticed Scentsy has switched over to a new scent sample, they switched to what looks like 1/3 oz samples instead of their 2.5oz (about) samples they did. She said she thinks they loose their scent and I told her it was probably because they can make them for around $.25 instead of the others which probably cost them 1.25... and I also told her the tarts she sells for 5 dollars probably cost Scentsy around $1 and the $30 warmers likely cost them around $6

As for the patent it is very very expensive to patent something.... I'd be interested in knowing what it was he thinks he patented. It wouldn't be hard to look up the patent or trademark (which I did look up on the other person and couldn't find anything on it but she says she had been making them for 10 years so it might not be in the digitalized database)

I have to say I have never asked anybody about their exact formula I actually wouldn't think of it. I spent thousands of dollars and months of my time formulating what I have now I would never think of just changing because some person said they did it x way... I do ask if they are soy, and if they use a parasoy blend. I had one local person who call them natural soy and they use 6006 which absolutely kills me... but anyway... I do smell scents I've never seen before and I smell some basic scents to see what others think is acceptable. I have noticed lately there has been a distinct scent that is present in a lot of my competitions candles, it is some kind of chemical-e scent that is perplexing. There has only ever been one supplier I have gotten that "tone" from though a supplier who is close to us sells scents I think from the same scent house which is why I don't use them.

I think I've rambled enough but I am kind of excited to test out this scentsy bar. I am most interested in how well it pops out of the container after it is cooled. I do want to find a supplier of low temp melters that don't look ugly. I found one supplier but they don't fit my style. I want a good quality warmer that tops out at 140. It is so hard to find!

It wasn't anything special either. I don't really want to say exactly what it was but it was a kind of ContAiNer... actually it is just the name that was trademarked. I could do the actual ContAiNers (though there are safety issues so I would not do it) i just couldn't call it the name she trademarked for her CANdles... At the end of everything when she realized I ONLY work in soy for my candles she was sort of "oh poor soul" and talked about how she thinks soy is terrible because she poured 10 pounds once. She says it doesn't burn right, smell right, it sweats, and all the stuff that someone experienced in soy know how to do right... I let her think that. Won't hurt me any.

Ok... a new candle company came to 'town' and moved into a location that is within driving distance. Now, I know a lot of the candle makers around here and we generally work together as we see each other at shows and all. Well I strolled into their store, and was poking around. I struck up a conversation with the owner and when she found out I was a candle maker something in her switched. I said, I heard there was a new candle company in town I wanted to come and see if it was anyone I know. She said "Oh" I said its nice to see what others are doing and how business is going and she replied "I don't generally check out other companies I try not to steal ideas" So I said oh there is nothing here that compare to what I do. I stay away from paraffin, won't touch palm (which I noticed hers were made wrong... very very wrong) and wouldn't think of doing gel candles. I guess I came off as nasty so she felt the need to tell me one of her products (which were very ugly, and not unique) was "...trademarked so don't think of stealing those" So it got me wondering. Do you treat your competition like an enemy? Or try and work together?

Before I found these boards I have gained all my information essentially interning with some other candle manufacturers. I also encourage others to begin making candles. To me any product made by hand locally is a good thing and if someone can use candles as a starting point for their business, life, friendship... whatever they value it is a good thing. Never mind they might take A customer or two... when it comes down to it true candle lovers will buy from both and those who love doing what they do will come out ahead. So does anybody else have competition stories or a different way of dealing with competition?

HAHA I bet they were all scratching their heads over there asking each other what was happening.

It is very interesting to know all of this, and it does clear a lot of it up. I have tried almost all IGI products so when I was told without hesitation that 125 is what it is I assumed I didn't need to test any of the others. I know someone who uses 130 and calls her candles "natural soy candles" which burns me up every time I see her at a show.... but anyway lol I want to try 141 now though. In a way I am kinda happy that they aren't exactly IGI products I like their company a lot and didn't want to be responsible for any loss of business. New round of testings coming up lol

I found this out when I asked them if they could order a pallet of 4630 for me, I'm closer to them than any other wholesale company and they replied with "...our CBL-125 is identical to that product and the only difference is we bring the product in liquid form and slab the material but not allowed to call it 4630" I don't know about the other ones but you can ask them they don't seem to be hiding their secret formula. This was in the second email to them ever.

Edited to say If I had to guess I would say 141=IGI 4625 129= IGI 4794 & 130= IGI 6006

Actually yes. I was thinking of their 126 mp wax (under paraffin wax subcategory), but was referring to the cbl 125.

Candlewic's slab waxes are IGI waxes they get truck in liquid form and slab themselves which is why they don't call them IGI. Generally you can figure out which ones they are by their melt point but their cbl 126 is igi 4630. Really awesome for straight paraffin candles, and blends well with soy and palm.

Autumn Magic from Natures Garden. Its not exact, but hits all of the notes I love in Autumn Leaves and really I love this scent.

I'm not a fan of melt points above 140 but I will likely test it out to see how it works. For Eric, I actually like lower melt point wax at higher temps. c3 and 464 (mp around 100) at 160 is probably my best throw in soy. With paraffin the best straight paraffin throw I got was 4630 (125 mp) at 160. This is just my experience though. As they say "individual results may vary"

Yeah YC does use a harder wax for their containers but its part of their trademark look. Very few candle companies do a mottled container wax. I do think it is container wax though, it does adhere well to the jar and when I "play" with it (I do candle trade-ins) it does hold up to molding, but it doesn't have that pillar 'feel'