PurpleHippie Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 I've been testing several different recipes and noticed a difference in the geling stage. The past soaps have all been wraped with thick towels and placed in the same location. The room temp. there is around 79-81 degrees. All of the recipes I have tested this past week heat up pretty quickly and start to gel fast. The one I tried today only became slightly warm and didn't gel like the others. It's tucked in for the night so I won't know how the finished product will be until the morning. The only thing different about this recipe than the others is the addition of 5% Castor Oil and a different FO. What causes some recipes to heat up and gel quicker than others? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Assuming the same batch size and mold, I think you're basically seeing differences in how fast the saponification goes. It can be affected by the amount of NaOH discount, the lye concentration and temperature of the mixture. Two of the biggest factors would be the oils you use and the fragrance.Some oils saponify faster than others. The saturated fatty acids in harder oils speed things up. Polyunsaturated fatty acids in very soft oils slow things down. The ricinoleic in castor oil has unique properties that can speed up the reaction. Free fatty acids saponify very quickly and those could come from stearic acid you add to the recipe, or from oils with a higher acid content like olive pomace or anything that's going rancid.Fragrance oils can have a huge impact. Some have very little effect and give you a leisurely soaping experience, while others give you very fast trace and possibly a hotter batch. I think the difference might have something to do with how the fragrance affects the emulsification of the mixture, sometimes facilitating the oil and NaOH coming into contact. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck_35550 Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 Top's especially right about fos speeding things up. I used a green aloe and clover that instantly put the soap into a thick heavy trace. I used the stick blender to even it out and quickly poured it in the mold. You never know until you try it and see what happens. I soap at really cool temps (I guess) around 80 degrees and match my oils and lye water temps but depending on the formula; sometimes you may need to soap at a warmer temp. HTH.Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PurpleHippie Posted August 20, 2009 Author Share Posted August 20, 2009 I understand now! Castor oil at 5% and a different FO were the only two things different in this recipe. I soap at 92-94 degrees. The soap never truly heated, it remained warm but not hot. I checked it this morning and it is still warm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted August 20, 2009 Share Posted August 20, 2009 One more thing occurred to me.Some of the things that affect the rate of saponification do so by affecting how easily the oil and lye solution are pulled into emulsion. The emulsification of the mixture (the process of bringing the oil and water together) is also controlled by the soaper.All the mixing you do to achieve trace is about emulsifiying the ingredients to kick-start saponification. If you do less of it and pour at a thin trace, the whole process can go much slower. If you mix a lot and get it to a thicker trace, that will give it a bigger kick-start and you might get more accumulation of heat in the mold. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CareBear Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 also, according to the Caveman Chemist - you are more likely to gel (which basically means get hot) if you have more water (within reason, I'm sure) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hem06 Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 All the mixing you do to achieve trace is about emulsifiying the ingredients to kick-start saponification. If you do less of it and pour at a thin trace, the whole process can go much slower. If you mix a lot and get it to a thicker trace, that will give it a bigger kick-start and you might get more accumulation of heat in the mold.That is really interesting! I had not thought of that. I know when I do my 100% coconut salt bars (even without salt, if I do 100% coconut with high super fat), I get the batter quite thick so I can mix the salt in, and I have to take great care that it doesn't over heat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 That is really interesting! I had not thought of that. I know when I do my 100% coconut salt bars (even without salt, if I do 100% coconut with high super fat), I get the batter quite thick so I can mix the salt in, and I have to take great care that it doesn't over heat.I think all the saturated fatty acids in the coconut oil recipe would account for the fast trace. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck_35550 Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 (edited) The rule of thumb that I learned off the Miller Soap site is that when your soap rises by 2 degrees its ready to pour. I watch my thermometer and wait for that 2 degree shift. If I pour past that climb in temp its usually a much thicker trace and is much more difficult to smooth out and remove air bubbles. Watch the next time you soap and see if that happens and then pour your soap. HTH.Steve Edited August 21, 2009 by chuck_35550 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PurpleHippie Posted August 21, 2009 Author Share Posted August 21, 2009 One more thing occurred to me.Some of the things that affect the rate of saponification do so by affecting how easily the oil and lye solution are pulled into emulsion. The emulsification of the mixture (the process of bringing the oil and water together) is also controlled by the soaper.All the mixing you do to achieve trace is about emulsifiying the ingredients to kick-start saponification. If you do less of it and pour at a thin trace, the whole process can go much slower. If you mix a lot and get it to a thicker trace, that will give it a bigger kick-start and you might get more accumulation of heat in the mold.That's exactly what I did with this recipe. The previous ones were mixed longer and poured at a thicker trace. I am experimenting with pouring thicker and thinner to practice swirling. I poured at a thin-med. trace. Thanks for adding that information Top!Such good advice here. I appreciate everyone's help:) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topofmurrayhill Posted August 21, 2009 Share Posted August 21, 2009 Hey, I could go on.At the beginning I said, "Assuming the same batch size and mold." But that's a significant consideration too. Obviously some molds are better insulated than others, but also more heat gets trapped in larger batches than in smaller ones. The heat that's being generated throughout the batch has to escape from the surface of the soap, but as the batch gets larger the volume of soap increases faster than the surface area. That's especially true for block molds.I make my production soap in block molds. My procedure includes some insurance to make sure the soap gels, but most batches probably would do so without any help. However, if I'm just trying out a formula in my 2-bar mini-mold, it have to keep it in an oven to make sure it gels. It would never warm up enough on its own. If I decided to use a mold twice the size of my normal ones, I'd have the opposite problem and would be worrying about overheating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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