which recipe is better ?

[chuck_35550]

I kinda have to agree with Top's statement (humbly speaking). It's difficult to pick out a book on the topic, much less know which way is up. There doesn't seem to be a lot of current literature available (except with technical/industrial publications) and there are some soap laws that are discounted back and forth on the board. Top has made me re-think my whole approach to soap making by directing my attention to the question of how can I make better soap through understanding the chemistry. This board is the closest thing I have to soaping with another human. What I wouldn't give for a partner in crime (wanted to say grime).

[topofmurrayhill]

I do soap and candles full time.

I'm not discrediting anyone when I answer questions that people ask. If you have different answers, you can post your own. I stand by mine.

I don't post answers to things I don't know about. That includes answers to palm wax questions. In the case you are referring to, the thread was entitled TOPs or anyone please help wick won't go out on pillar.

My reply was:

I don't do palm, so I don't have experience with what happens if the bottom of the candle blows out and the wax drains abruptly. What I would normally do is cut the wick short of the bottom before doing the final wax pour--that way it falls over and drowns in the melt pool before the candle burns down too far. In the case of palm candles, maybe it will drown out before the melt pool blows out the bottom.

Apparently you don't read threads before posting, because you came along a day later and said this:

Here's what we do since we've chosen to not use stick pins in our pillars. We cut the wick as short as we can and then pour a wax cap to cover the wick. This allows a base for the wick to sit on and allows it to snuff out on its own so it won't melt through at the bottom of the candle . I hope that made sense.

Maybe you can be more specific about what you didn't like about my answer.

Edited March 21, 2010 by topofmurrayhill

[topofmurrayhill]

There doesn't seem to be a lot of current literature available (except with technical/industrial publications) and there are some soap laws that are discounted back and forth on the board. Top has made me re-think my whole approach to soap making by directing my attention to the question of how can I make better soap through understanding the chemistry.

You have it so right. There's a big gap between expensive literature that's aimed at chemical engineers and the books that got the craft industry off the ground, which are styled more like projects books and cookbooks. There is a new book coming out this year that is aimed at bridging the gap between the two. I think an advance proof of it will be available at the upcoming HSMG convention.

[CareBear]

Top, you seem to want to always discredit people and the experience they bring to this board with all your scientific reports. Do you sell soap for a living? How many batches have you made? I'm just curious to know because I've seen you dispense advice on palm candles only to find out you never made a palm candle. Now you seem to be an expert just based on the tests you are flooding the natural section with.

What's up with you TOp? Are you trying for a MOD position?

I think what TOP is saying is that we've never really quantified our knowledge - made it concrete. So while we can say what we've seen in our particular experience, since none (few) of us is doing the exact same thing, it's hard to apply this knowledge.

I work by intuition - which I know very well is my ability to integrate what I've learned from my experiences. It's not some mysterious ability to predict - it's based on facts. But I've not ever gotten around to finding a way to gather those facts in a manner that makes it easy for anyone else to apply. Someday I'll look at the FA profiles of my best soaps and my worst and work out the relationships.

I've never seen a post from TOP that was not firmly grounded in research and most often experience - quite different from the majority of us. And must one sell for a living in order to have an expertise?

[CareBear]

You have it so right. There's a big gap between expensive literature that's aimed at chemical engineers and the books that got the craft industry off the ground, which are styled more like projects books and cookbooks. There is a new book coming out this year that is aimed at bridging the gap between the two. I think an advance proof of it will be available at the upcoming HSMG convention.

Is that the one we've been working with Dr Dunn on?

[eugenia]

Dee,

I have tried many, many recipes and always come back to this one as my standard, took me a bit to come up with it, as a new soaper, there are so many choices out there that it's tricky, so you need to experiment a lot.

10% palm oil

15% coconut oil

5 % castor

5 % shea butter unrefined

15 % pko flakes

5% babassu

45% Rice Bran

You can sub olive for the RBO or add sunflower or safflower but I would keep those short shelf oils at 10% or less. You can sub out other butters for shea, silk and clay are great.

HTH,

e

[Meridith]

I do soap and candles full time.

I'm not discrediting anyone when I answer questions that people ask. If you have different answers, you can post your own. I stand by mine.

I don't post answers to things I don't know about. That includes answers to palm wax questions. In the case you are referring to, the thread was entitled TOPs or anyone please help wick won't go out on pillar.

My reply was:

I don't do palm, so I don't have experience with what happens if the bottom of the candle blows out and the wax drains abruptly. What I would normally do is cut the wick short of the bottom before doing the final wax pour--that way it falls over and drowns in the melt pool before the candle burns down too far. In the case of palm candles, maybe it will drown out before the melt pool blows out the bottom.

Apparently you don't read threads before posting, because you came along a day later and said this:

Here's what we do since we've chosen to not use stick pins in our pillars. We cut the wick as short as we can and then pour a wax cap to cover the wick. This allows a base for the wick to sit on and allows it to snuff out on its own so it won't melt through at the bottom of the candle . I hope that made sense.

Maybe you can be more specific about what you didn't like about my answer.

What I don't like about your answers is that you act as if you've tried all soaper's recipes and that most of what is made is inferior. I think a handmade bar of soap and whether you it like can be very subjective. It's not that your scientific research and tests are wrong, its more that tastes can vary. I know people on this board that don't post much but I would not say they make an inferior bar but based on your previous statements, one might think they do.

[topofmurrayhill]

I stand by the assertion that handcrafting has a lot of room for advancement. There could be more research and experimentation rather than relying on dubious rules of thumb, product quality could be assessed more objectively, and a better understanding of chemistry could be applied.

I can't pinpoint what the average quality of handcrafted soap is. There are people who know what they're doing. I've seen some here and especially on The Dish. I have also seen and tried a lot of half-baked recipes and misguided approaches. But you accuse me of saying that most handcrafted soap is inferior. I don't have a particular opinion on that, but I would observe that the majority of craft product in any field of endeavor is probably nothing special. It's always a minority of people who produce the best stuff. But the average could be better and the minority could be larger. In any event, I'm not commenting on any individual in particular.

As far as your previous question is concerned, no I do not want to be a Mod. That's for a variety of reasons, including the fact that there isn't enough of a pay increase. I do hope, however, that someday I'll be skilled enough to earn the title Soap Waxer Extraordinaire.

Edited March 22, 2010 by topofmurrayhill

[Meridith]

Of course you can always improve on what you do. But you act as if you have all the answers. A lot of what we do is very subjective and can vary from person to person. You are an arrogant know it all and you obviously don't understand humor.

Edited March 22, 2010 by Meridith

[topofmurrayhill]

Yeah, you're obviously a barrel of laughs.

[chuck_35550]

I think there are instances where its unavoidable to sound like a know it all. I believe there are some soaping procedures that are the best for reliable results but others dismiss this result without even testing it for verification. I've had to develop a pretty thick skin on this and other boards as a result of those prevailing attitudes. At times I have been guilty of the same crime; especially with newbies (even though I myself am still a fledgling). Top usually cuts to the chase and doesn't suffer fools, which makes him difficult to take at times but he is usually on the money and has made apologies when proven wrong. I could say that certain other people have been pretty rough on me for breaking ettiquette rules; especially soapers.