My first CP batch - gone terribly wrong!

[katinmo]

After weeks of reading and gathering supplies, I finally decided to jump into CP. I chose a simple recipe and followed suggestions for first timers (no color, no FO, no stick blender, etc). It seemed like everything went well. I stirred by hand for ~30 min, until I was sure I was at trace, then poured into my lined shoe box and wrapped it up overnight. Unmolded after about 20 hours but when I tried to cut, it was very brittle and was just breaking into uneven chunks and lots of crumbs. It failed the zap test miserably! I know exactly where I went wrong but the question is how to fix it or whether to fix it at all.

My problem is my well-intentioned husband who only listens to me about half of the time. He’s been listening to me talk about soaping, SAP values, NaOH, water discount, etc. for weeks. Water discount is something I’m interested in but had no intention of trying until I’ve got several soaping experiences under my belt. So, when I asked him to bring home some NaOH from work, we thought he’d save me some trouble and bring home a 50% NaOH/H2O solution. Well, I didn’t want to send him back to work on a Saturday but I didn’t want to wait until next weekend so I thought, “Okay, I consider myself above average at math. I can figure this out. No problem.” (Famous last words, right?)

Here’s my recipe (2#):

45% Olive oil (14.4 oz)

25% Coconut oil (8 oz)

25% Lard (8 oz)

5% Castor Oil (1.6 oz)

At 5% superfat, my manual calculations (confirmed by Brambleberry’s calculator) said I needed 4.4 oz NaOH to 10.6 oz water. So I did some creative math figuring that at 50%, my solution would be 4.4 oz NaOH to 8.8 oz water so I needed 13.2 oz of solution. I’m thinking I should’ve actually used 8.8 oz of solution. Can someone confirm my error?

So, if I managed to mess up my first batch, should my second attempt at soap be a rebatch? Or should I just start anew? If I rebatch, how do I figure how much more oil (and which kinds) to add to my lye heavy batch?

Thanks so much for your help. This board has been very helpful!

Kat

[topofmurrayhill]

Yes, you should have used 8.8 oz of the solution. A 50% solution would be 4.4 oz NaOH and 4.4 oz water.

Of course, the NaOH amount is the critical part, but you could have added an additional 6.2 oz water to reach your intended lye concentration.

[Kitn]

Bummer, I am sorry that happened to your first batch.

[JacquiO]

I'm so sorry to hear you had such a negative experience. Looking at your recipe I'm seeing a lot of hard oils. Olive oil alone makes a very hard brittle soap. I almost broke my crinkle cutter trying to cut it. I've just started making CP myself and I've been making HP soaps for about 2 years now and I have not had a single bad batch.

First off go to Wally-mart and get a $10 or better stick blender. No more stirring for 30 minutes. You'll reach trace in less than five.

So far I've only used a couple recipes found right here on craftserver.

http://www.craftserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36294

http://www.craftserver.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51804

Queitgirl's recipe is the best IMHO but it does require purchasing some stuff online like the palm kernel flakes and the shea butter but other than than that you can get everything else in the supermarkets.

The other recipe I use from Carriegsxr6 that is very similar to the one you used but it has soybean oil instead of the castor. If you look at the ingredient label on some store brand vegetable oils you'll see most are 100% soybean. I use Crisco instead of the vegetable because it also has a little palm oil. Personally I think using the crisco really softens the bars so they are easier to cut and is a great ingredient. The only problem I have with this recipe is that the oils tend to want to separate on me. In order to keep that from happening I have to stick blend it to a medium-thick to thick trace so if you need to work with a thin trace to do swirls and designs I don't recommend this recipe but for a straight bar of soap it's great.

I like using carrie's recipe for my goat's milk soaps as well.

The other thing I've been doing with my CP which I don't do using the HP method is let my lye and oils cool to about 90 degrees before combining them. Many soapers swear this is the best way to work with cooled ingredients where as others soap hot with no issues. Like I said I haven't had a bad batch yet working this way.

I also use this soap calculator at 5% superfat and follow it to the tee and it's never steered me wrong. http://soapcalc.net/calc/SoapCalcWP.asp

You can rebatch your soap and try adding some oils. It may still zap because it's not fully cured. I used only CPOP (cold process oven process) method so far and none of my soaps zap after putting in the oven for an hour or 2 but I still cure them for 4 weeks before giving out.

Personally I would put aside your bad batch and just start over anew. You can always go back and rebatch later but it might make you feel better to just go ahead and do one good batch and JMO but I would recommend adding some fragrance, maybe some color and some exfoliating additives. There is nothing in the world like the smell and feel of your first batch of handmade soap in the shower.

Good luck!

Cheers,

Jacqui

Edited April 25, 2010 by JacquiO

[JacquiO]

Yes, you should have used 8.8 oz of the solution. A 50% solution would be 4.4 oz NaOH and 4.4 oz water.

Of course, the NaOH amount is the critical part, but you could have added an additional 6.2 oz water to reach your intended lye concentration.

Yeah after re-reading your post it sounds like you were lye heavy. If your using the 50/50 solution run your weight and percentages through the soap calc. and for instance if it says use 5oz lye and 16oz water measure out 10 ounces solution and add 11 ounce water (or milk if you'd like).

[topofmurrayhill]

Yeah after re-reading your post it sounds like you were lye heavy.

To say the least. It was 150% of the intended amount.

A recipe with a lot of olive oil isn't going to produce brittle soap. There's nothing really wrong with the recipe except that it would be nicer with less OO and more lard.

In fact, you should try that yourself. It will be a real revelation if you make a batch that sticks with proper soaping oils instead of all that polyunsaturated stuff from the grocercy store. Your batches tend to separate because those oils are essentially semi-saponifiable.

Even when you get trace on it, I guarantee that your soap at the bottom of the mold is more alkaline than the soap at the top of the mold, and that all of it is more alkaline than it should be even after a good cure period.

[JacquiO]

In fact, you should try that yourself. It will be a real revelation if you make a batch that sticks with proper soaping oils instead of all that polyunsaturated stuff from the grocercy store. Your batches tend to separate because those oils are essentially semi-saponifiable.

What exactly constitutes "proper soaping oils"? And how come it's only with Carrie's recipe that I have this issue? Not that it's a big issue. I use all the same "grocery store" bought oils in Quietgirl's recipe and don't have any separation issues so I don't think it's my improper store bought oils. Like I can afford to buy bulk and pay shipping from Soaper's Choice when I can get my oils on sale or at wally-mart and still have wonderful feeling, looking, and smelling soaps.

[katinmo]

Thank you both for your help. I'll try again later this week, using better math this time!

Do you think I should continue with discounted water (assuming I calculate it correctly this time)?

Edited April 26, 2010 by katinmo

[topofmurrayhill]

What exactly constitutes "proper soaping oils"? And how come it's only with Carrie's recipe that I have this issue? Not that it's a big issue. I use all the same "grocery store" bought oils in Quietgirl's recipe and don't have any separation issues so I don't think it's my improper store bought oils. Like I can afford to buy bulk and pay shipping from Soaper's Choice when I can get my oils on sale or at wally-mart and still have wonderful feeling, looking, and smelling soaps.

I wasn't trying to say that it's about where you get your oils. Pardon the miscommunication. That came out of your observation that so many cooking oils are soybean, but you can also get soaping oils at the grocery too. On the liquid side, proper base oils are olive and high-oleic oils. Soybean isn't a soaping oil. Safflower and sunflower sometimes come in high-oleic versions that soap well, but the linoleic versions not so much.

The matter with separation, alkalinity and curing time is about two things. One issue is very soft recipes and the other is using polyunsaturated oils. Carrie's recipe has a double whammy because it's half soft oil plus it uses soybean oil. That's why you have separation issues with it. Even when you don't get visible separation, it's likely that the soap is not uniform and has extra lye in the lower portion and extra oil towards the top. The few instances where it might helpful to incorporate soybean oil, it would be in a hard recipe rather than a soft one. Personally I think you can make better soap, but if you're really committed to that recipe I'd suggest soaping warm and getting a real good trace on it before pouring.

The other recipe will make more than one kind of soap, depending on what kind of vegetable shortening and safflower oil you use. 25% linoleic safflower oil is not a good thing. With high-oleic safflower oil it's basically similar to using 50% olive oil. It's quite possible that you're getting the high-oleic version at the store.

[chuck_35550]

How about 25% OO

25% CO

40% Lard

10% Castor

It's still on the cusp of high iodine at 55 but everything else looks ok. I watch my temp when going for trace and find that when the temp jumps several degrees you are generally there. You can wait and pour at a more medium trace but if you are adding fo or any other ingredients that need mixing, your temp will jump a few more degrees and you are almost to heavy trace by the time you pour. Really good soapers are able to feel the side of the pot and know when its right but I ain't there yet. HTH.

Steve

[chuck_35550]

I got two giant bottles of regular Safflower that needs to get off my shelf if anybody wants it for soaping. Interestingly, High Oleic Safflower and Sunflower classifies as oleic.