Crowsfeet Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 I'm totally new here... and to candle making. I'm baffled about how I can get no hot throw from a candle - but when I put the same wax in a warmer the scent is perfect.464 soy with 9% fragrance load6 oz jelly jarECO 10 wickHeated to 185 - added FO and poured at 165. Candle set up well, lit fine and developed nice melt pool, but there was no hot throw.Test burn 5 days after pouringI poured the extra from that batch into tart mold. Put the tart on a warmer after 5 days and the scent was perfect.I might add, the cold throw was awesome. This scares me! If a candle smells great cold, what's killing the hot throw? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mparadise Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 (edited) It could be as simple as the wick is not right for that jar. You might want to try a different size or a different series wick to see if you get a better result. It can make a huge difference. Another thing you can try is backing down on the scent a little bit. As weird as it sounds sometimes using less helps the wax throw better when it is burnt. I used to max out the FO ratios too until I realized that I got better throw using 1 oz per lb (6%) of a quality FO and doing this helped save me $. In tarts I do stick to 9% because you aren't working with a wick and it helps the melt pool hold the scent longer but not in a wicked candle. Unfortunately I do not use that wax or that jar so I can not offer a wick suggestion but hopefully someone else will come along that can. Edited February 12, 2011 by mparadise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wessex Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 It could be as simple as the wick is not right for that jar. You might want to try a different size or a different series wick to see if you get a better result. It can make a huge difference. Another thing you can try is backing down on the scent a little bit. As weird as it sounds sometimes using less helps the wax throw better when it is burnt. I used to max out the FO ratios too until I realized that I got better throw using 1 oz per lb (6%) of a quality FO and doing this helped save me $. In tarts I do stick to 9% because you aren't working with a wick and it helps the melt pool hold the scent longer but not in a wicked candle. Unfortunately I do not use that wax or that jar so I can not offer a wick suggestion but hopefully someone else will come along that can.You hit it right on the mark, IMO. One thing I want to mention is that wickless (tarts) can have a MUCH better throw than even a properly wicked candle. So once you get the candle wicked properly, it still might not get as good a HT as the tart. This is just my experience, others might have candles that throw as well as tarts. If so, I will pay to find out how, LOL.Cheers,Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowsfeet Posted February 13, 2011 Author Share Posted February 13, 2011 Thanks. I believe you are right on target with the backing off on the scent load. I will take your sage advice and save my money : ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IwantItgreen Posted February 13, 2011 Share Posted February 13, 2011 AN ECO 10 in a 6 oz jar sounds quite large to me. Try a 6. If that's too small it'll drown out, otherwise burn to the end. Also letting you candle cure a few more days may help also as that tends to clear up your candle nose as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowsfeet Posted February 13, 2011 Author Share Posted February 13, 2011 Thank you IwantItgreen... I am having difficulty wrapping my head around the "bigger is not better" (as well as more is not better than less) in candle making. I've spent a lot of time reading numerous posts on here and think I'm finally starting to see the light. I thought a candle should always have a full melt pool on the first test burn, so I was wicking up. Also, I thought with a smaller wick.... more fragrance oil was necessary. Sheesh! Now i'm understanding fragrance oils - even from the same company - can require different size wicks and fragrance loads. I'm glad I decided to join this board because I was really close to just giving up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck_35550 Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Placement of your tester is important too. If your house draws or ventilates in a pattern through the house you could possible smell nothing in the room but get a good throw down the hall. HTH Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faerywren Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 (edited) Welcome to the infuriating world of soy candle making. Also what chuck said. Sometimes when I'm testing a candle in my husband's study, I don't smell it that well while I'm in there, but the throw hits me when I head up the stairs. Edited February 16, 2011 by Faerywren Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowsfeet Posted February 20, 2011 Author Share Posted February 20, 2011 Thanks for all your help! I'm still struggling - I can't figure out how some work perfect and others flop. I get my scents from CS and the ones that definitely don't work for me are Hawaiian Island, Clean Cotton and Love Spell. I prepared them all the same... heat to 185, added color (Love Spell only), stirred and poured hot. CT was great with Clean Cotton and Love Spell - just no HT. Wick worked ok with other scents - a bit large as pointed out, but it's all I had. Also - sent the candles around for other noses, so I ruled out my house and nose. I know - from reading and reading and reading - that I am doing something wrong, but can't put my finger on it. I'm thinking I'm either not stirring long enough or adding FO too hot. I was going by CS recommendations - heat to 185 and add FO, stir for 2 minutes and pour. I really like how they come out when poured hot, but it obviously isn't working for all scents! CS did tell me that 185 isn't too hot for adding FO, but after reading all these posts, I have to wonder about that! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forevershanda Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 This brings me to a question that I have. No amount of research can necessarily be better than experience. I have read that you do not want to add your fo at a temp higher than its flashpoint as it will cook it out. Is that true???ShandaPS sorry for hijacking the thread Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowsfeet Posted February 20, 2011 Author Share Posted February 20, 2011 I have come across that theory several times. I don't know if it is true or not, CS claims it isn't. Anyway, all 3 of my flops had FP's of 200 or higher and I heat to 185. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam W Posted February 20, 2011 Share Posted February 20, 2011 AN ECO 10 in a 6 oz jar sounds quite large to me. Try a 6. If that's too small it'll drown out, otherwise burn to the end. Also letting you candle cure a few more days may help also as that tends to clear up your candle nose as well.I haven't used your type of wax but I do have experience with Eco wicks and I cannot imagine putting a #10 in a 6oz jar. It's very possible that the oversized wick is simply burning off the scent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella1952 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 (edited) This brings me to a question that I have. No amount of research can necessarily be better than experience. I have read that you do not want to add your fo at a temp higher than its flashpoint as it will cook it out. Is that true???ShandaPS sorry for hijacking the threadI have come across that theory several times. I don't know if it is true or not, CS claims it isn't. Anyway, all 3 of my flops had FP's of 200 or higher and I heat to 185.The question is worth the hijack. People get confused about flashpoint and "burning off" the FO while making the candle...First, understand what "flash point" is:from Wikipedia...The flash point of a volatile liquid is the lowest temperature at which it can vaporize to form an ignitable mixture in air. Measuring a liquid's flash point requires an ignition source. At the flash point, the vapor may cease to burn when the source of ignition is removed. The flash point is not to be confused with the autoignition temperature, which does not require an ignition source. The fire point, a higher temperature, is defined as the temperature at which the vapor continues to burn after being ignited. Neither the flash point nor the fire point is related to the temperature of the ignition source or of the burning liquid, which are much higher.Your HT problem has nothing to do with the flashpoint of the FO or the temp at which you added your FO. The oil is dissolved into the wax, a much larger volume of material, thus the flash point changes... Having said that, I'm sure if you COOK the FO in your wax at higher temps for a prolonged period of time, you could surely impact the throw of the wax because some of the volatile oils would evaporate after a while; BUT if pouring FO into wax even at 200° (the typical pouring temp for palm wax) doesn't kill the throw, it stands to reason that FO is manufactured to withstand 185° F for a few minutes without being destroyed! I didn't see any mention of dye... If you are using a dye that's hard to burn and is impacting the wick efficiency, that can also be a factor.From what I have read here, I think the problem is your wicking and the FO load. Two problems.Too much FO causes the wick to have to work a lot harder to burn all that extra stuff with the wax. Too many impurities (like FO & dye) in the liquid fuel mucks up the burn. It couldn't throw if it wanted to! Use the least amount needed to get the throw you want (which is why FO loads for various waxes can be misinterpreted - encourages people to think "mo' is better," so they use 12% 'cause it says you can). A good ball-park check is to melt some of the non-throwing wax in a tart melter and see if it throws. If it does, it ain't the FO or wax - it's yo' wick. The actual wick type and size matter. Wicking too hot WILL cook off oils because the temp of the flame of your wick is a LOT hotter than your Presto, I assure you! My best advice is to reduce your FO load to 1 oz. PP and wick down a size as advised by the ECO users who've replied. HTH Edited February 21, 2011 by Stella1952 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pam W Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Besides burning off the FO, I would think the Eco 10 would really heat up a jj to the point of being unsafe.No matter what you hear - bigger is not always better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowsfeet Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 Thank you so much! Stella, I think the flash point issue is finally behind me I don't think I could have understood the dictionary definition without you! I used dye in only one of them, so I didn't think that was it. And I don't know why I said i used 9% - i used 1oz pp with each of them. Sorry about that. So, with the flash point and FL out of the way, it narrows down to wick and particular FO? Am I getting close?? I did put some of each on my melter - and with the exception of 1, the throw was good, so i'm back to wicks. All I have is ECO - looks like I need smaller sizes and am also going to check into the CD & CDN's I've been reading about. I soooooooo want to get a good soy candle. The opportunities are wide open here - Iowa, for crying out loud and locally nobody even pours candles - can you believe it?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella1952 Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Iowa, for crying out loud and locally nobody even pours candles - can you believe it??Say WHA? :shocked2:I thought there'd be a soy candle in EVERY window in Iowa... Well, there's a goal for ya!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowsfeet Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 LOL Stella! tis sad, but true. I can't even find a soy wax supplier in the state - I even contacted the soy boys and they did even bother to reply. Thank God for these boards and nice, experienced people like you! When I "get it" (and I will) soy candles are going to be expensive in Iowa since I have to have it shipped so far. Crazy. I look out my kitchen window and see acres of soy - and have to pay to have waxed shipped to my door. Thanks for all your wisdom! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
forevershanda Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Thank you so much for clarifying the fp myth for me!! I knew flash point means the point it would "catch fire", but my little mind just kind of equated that to "burning" and thought well, yeah, just like cooking oil gets to hot and you can burn it and ruin it, I guess you could do that to fo. Now remember, I am only in my researching stage to progress to experimenting next month (I don't count those crappy hobby lobby things!), but I did get to not put my fo in till right before pouring, but what I didn't know till coming here was to stir it in for a full 2 minutes! So glad I found this place! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crowsfeet Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 No. I was confused about what I had been reading about temps to add FO, and wondered if 185 was too hot. Stella set me straight about all that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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