Do candle containers effect performance

[HorseScentS]

The taller neck is safer but there is still the issue of adhering the tab to the floor of the container. I am seeing this fail more and more as I test (Tacky Wax). I know Stella is a fan of the high temp adhesive (PermaTex?) she uses and that may be the best solution. I won't use it in my testers as I will rewick those. So no matter how tall the neck is, if the wick draws wax from below due to adhesion failure it will still burn.

I use the Red Permatex High Temp Gasket Sealer from the auto supply, & I make sure the wick assembly is completely sealed all around.

[HorseScentS]

This page of Candlemakers Store says the 3.8 mm high wick tabs are only for very small containers, & the 6 mm are for general safety, & the 10 mm for certain containers. http://www.thecandlemakersstore.com/category/wicking.wick_tabs/ I wonder what Yankee uses...

Here's more:

http://newcart.candlesandsupplies.com/Store/Products/Candles/PID-WT.aspx

High collar (9mm) neck is recommended for maximum safety in gel candles. All of our pre-tabbed wicks for gel candles have 15mm high collar tabs. Flame will extinguish when 6mm or less wax remains in the jar.

Low collar (3mm) neck is recommended for tea lights and small candles that do not have a large wick size that produces a hot flame. Candle will burn completely to the bottom with this tab and is only used on our pre-tabbed wicks designed for tea light candles.

20 mm size

More stable when burning, disperses heat better in candles 1" and larger to achieve a cleaner burn at the end of consumption.

Standard Collar (6mm) neck is recommended for maximum safety in all container candles. Flame will extinguish when 3mm or less wax remains in the jar.

Edited May 19, 2011 by HorsescentS

[Stella1952]

I prefer a jar configuration that is about as wide as it is tall. This helps keep a decent oxygen flow to the end of the candle and are easy to wick in most cases. I try to stay away from double wicking and or jars that have wide and narrow parts but mostly a cost effective jar that customers will accept. Tumblers with lids are great but I currently use a 12 oz and a 16 oz salsa jar with a gold lid. I leave a good 1/2 inch of wax at the bottom and honestly, that last bit of candle is pretty degraded in quality anyway. Customers don't complain because they can easily light their candle each time, it doesn't tunnel and it burns clean for the most part. Leaving the wax is by design and not a sign of a poorly made candle.

I agree wholeheartedly with every word you wrote, Steve.:yay:

I missed Stella's post about some jars being "designed to crack"???

I think I did, too! :laugh2:If memory serves, I was talking about canning jars. The bottom is thicker than the sides (for obvious reasons) and there is a natural fault where the thicker bottom meets the thinner side. If the container is subjected to a lot of stress from heat or rough handling, it will tend to "pop" at that location rather than shatter. I suspect this was by design as manufacturers frequently make certain areas weaker for safety reasons (ie. it's better it should break there and not somewhere else). Any glass manufacturer would rather their glass crack than shatter.

I won't use it in my testers as I will rewick those.

That's just common sense. I use high temp hot glue for testers (that's how I was able to snap the photo in Post 12 of another thread)

So no matter how tall the neck is, if the wick draws wax from below due to adhesion failure it will still burn.

For the wick to suck wax under the wick tab, certain conditions have to exist.

1. The wax has to be liquid. Wicks won't suck a solid.
   
2. The seal between the wick tab and the container has to be compromised, either by softening or letting go altogether. It only takes a very small channel for the wick to merrily suck the liquid fuel and continue burning.
   

If one extinguishes a candle as the wax level reaches the top of the neck of the wick tab, allows the wax cool to a solid, then attempts to relight the candle, generally the wick will not stay lit because it can't get enough of a liquid melt pool going quickly enough to support further combustion.

Seems like the 6 mm tab would work for the tureen because because the center floor of it is convex & is raised up higher than the sides of the floor.

A convex bottom is less likely to allow a wick to continue sucking wax from underneath because it would have to suck the liquid uphill at some point. So long as the bottom of the unsealed wick tab is in contact with the liquid wax, then it can continue sucking; but once the level drops below that level, the show's over.

You have to appreciate the amount of heat that a wick can generate at the bottom of a container when the wax is totally liquid - it's a LOT hotter than it was when the upper third of the candle was burned. You also have to appreciate how strongly a lit wick can suck liquid fuel. I have a photo somewhere that shows tracks where the liquid wax was being sucked up until it congealed when the wick extinguished. That's a lot of capillary action!

It's a problem, because most customers will NEVER follow the safety instructions to extinguish before burning the last half inch. & if we use the safety wicks that self-extinguish before burning the last half inch, they see all the remaining wax & feel like they were ripped off. I don't blame them. What can we do? Not use glass containers?

Note that the quote from the NCA said "container candles" not "glass." This goes for tins, too.

I am not in the business of second guessing the National Fire Association, The Consumer Product Safety Commission and the National Candle Association (not to mention all the various Canadian, European and other safety organizations around the world). I understand the point they are making. I have seen the reasons. I get it. That's enough for me. I don't have time to obsess about trying to skirt the issue.

I don't care if a customer whines about being "ripped off" because my candles will not burn down to the last molecule of wax. Screw 'em - they can go buy from WalMart. I make my candles to meet or exceed safety guidelines. If a customer does not appreciate that, oh well. I explain, affix warning labels, use hang-tags for more information and offer handouts - if customers choose to ignore all of that, that's why one carries product liability insurance.

I don't "cave" when someone wants me to do something that I believe is unsafe. I don't buy into lowering my standards when others say they've been selling candles since the Middle Ages and have never had a wick stickum let go, a candle burn to the bottom and shatter, etc. That does not move me whatsoever. I have seen many of these issues with my own eyes while testing and what I haven't witnessed doesn't take ESP to predict. The question is, as Clint Eastwood succinctly put it: "Do you feel lucky today, punk?" I'd rather save my share of good luck for driving with eff-tards texting all around me... I don't need to be forced to go the extra mile for safety - I've had a home burn down and I understand how that feels.

Someone bought me a soy candle at a farmers market in an 8 oz mason jar, & it did break from heat when it got to the bottom of the jar. It was on my kitchen counter. Nothing happened, it extinguished, but the chandler never knew & they're out of business now.

Glad you suffered no loss. Just because a poorly manufactured candle causes a fire or damage doesn't mean there will be repercussions for the manufacturer. Someone must legally press the issue. I daresay that most get away scot-free.

Seems that most of the 15,000 homes that burn down annually are from inappropriate locations for the candle. Lit the curtains, or cabinets, or furniture, or bed on fire. That has nothing to do with 1/2 inch.

If a container shatters, flames can quickly spread, depending on what is close. If the heat increases enough, the wax itself can catch fire. That has happened to members who have posted here. It could even be the CAT that caught on fire, ran around and lit the curtains and bedding on fire... (I have 7 of them and don't want them to go "woof" from my candles).

my Warning label has the candles.org website in bold on it

That's a VERY good idea, Eric. Despite the fact that probably 99% (unofficial statistic pulled right out of my opinionated fanny) of customers will never go there, for the ONE who does, it's well worth the link ink to spread the word about candle safety.

Is the horse dead yet?

I think I started the hijack of this thread with my safety comments, so my sincere apologies to the OP.:tiptoe:

Now - to answer the original question posed in this thread, "Do candle containers affect performance?"

The answer is a simple YES for many reasons both simple and complex.

Edited May 22, 2011 by Stella1952

[EricofAZ]

The horse is almost dead. As for the comment about most fires starting from lighting nearby objects, and your comment that a broken container or a cat can do that too... the stats do have a category for candle failure/malfunction so I would hope that the folks who put the stats together don't mis-classify the cause.

As for the cat or dog that goes "Poof" and runs, these are known tragedies, but pretty rare. They didn't get a classification and are likely listed as "other." I am glad that people have pointed this out because we never want our precious pets to turn into a running torch.

[HorseScentS]

Great post, Stella! Thank you! From reading candle supplier websites, I'm now under the impression that the 10 mm wicks are for gel candles because they burn much hotter, but the 6 mm are safe for paraffin, soy, & palm if they're wicked correctly & with proper size/type of wick & completely sealed with very high temp adhesive like Permatex silicone. Do you agree? Do you think 6 mm is high enough for a properly wicked tureen or not? If not, I'm abandoning the tureen because leaving 1/2" wax in the bottom of that jar is just too much IMO.

I was thinking of using a hang-tag & giving a handout too, because NOBODY reads the warning sticker.

[HorseScentS]

The horse is almost dead. As for the comment about most fires starting from lighting nearby objects, and your comment that a broken container or a cat can do that too... the stats do have a category for candle failure/malfunction so I would hope that the folks who put the stats together don't mis-classify the cause.

As for the cat or dog that goes "Poof" and runs, these are known tragedies, but pretty rare. They didn't get a classification and are likely listed as "other." I am glad that people have pointed this out because we never want our precious pets to turn into a running torch.

OMG! I had no idea cats could ignite from getting too close to a candle!!!

[EricofAZ]

HorsescentS, not only can cat fur and dog fur ignite, the pet will run to the safest place it knows, often, the bed in the bedroom, and light the bed on fire.

I do have to say that cat fur is not what I consider to be highly combustible. Just like people hair, it takes a while to get the hair and oil in the skin burning. Just an open flame and a cat that passes over it may not be enough. A spilled candle with hot wax on a cat and a flame is absolutely a disaster as each hair will wick the wax.

This website suggests that 1000 homes annually burn as a result of the pets and lists several causes. Mostly knocking things over or chewing through something that starts fires. One of the solutions is to use flameless candles. http://www.akc.org/news/index.cfm?article_id=4152

I think it is very rare that a cat or dog will step over a candle, catch fire, and cause the house to burn, but once is enough.

Cigarettes remain the number one cause of home fires.

Edited May 24, 2011 by EricofAZ

[Stella1952]

Do you think 6 mm is high enough for a properly wicked tureen or not? If not, I'm abandoning the tureen because leaving 1/2" wax in the bottom of that jar is just too much IMO.

***sigh***

Leaving 1/2" is the standard of the industry. It is a round, average measurement that will not fit every situation, every container, etc. (tea lights & votives jump to mind) Every chandler has to weigh different aspects when deciding how to engineer their candle system for maximum safety and profitability: how much one likes a certain container, how popular it is with their customers, whether one thinks the risk outweighs the benefits, etc. For example: I wouldn't sell a candle poured in a stemmed wine glass for love nor money: they are too "tippy" to pass muster with me, and several other key drawbacks. I have poured and tested them myself, but I abandoned them because the benefit did not outweigh the risk, IMHO. The fact that they look very cool does not outweigh the sticking points concerning product safety. Other folks use this style candle as a mainstay of their product line! They see things differently and that is their prerogative.

Sure, 1/2" in a little container seems like a lot of waste, but that's the nature of the beast. Remember: you stated that the bottom is convex, which means a shorter neck height on the top of that convex bottom will still yield a 1/2" margin of safety when measuring from the lowest point in the bottom of the container to the top of the neck of the wick tab.

Why not test the heating of different neck heights and see for yourselves what meets with your own standards? Y'all have sense enough to know when a container gets too hot at the end of a burn! If you think it's acceptable and will work as planned even when burned by people who probably will not read the warning labels, hang tags or literature, make your decision accordingly.

Cigarettes remain the number one cause of home fires.

Nope - the #1 cause is people doing stoopid stuff.

I think it is very rare that a cat or dog will step over a candle, catch fire, and cause the house to burn, but once is enough.

I do NOT wanna see a YouTube of this phenomenon! Flaming cats are NOT my idea of entertainment, except perhaps as a dark fantasy after they have committed an almost unforgivable house sin (yarking hairballs down the speaker cloth from on high, for example).

More likely scenario: The cat steps over the candle, feels the heat, jumps straight up, yells YIKES, knocks over the candle, which lights the newspaper on the edge of the table on fire, which causes the clean unfolded laundry under the window to catch on fire, which catches the curtains on fire, which catches the papers you printed out about candlemaking and set on the arm of your recliner to torch off, which catches the lampshade on fire, which all causes the heat to suddenly rise in the room until flashover occurs and the whole deal explodes in flames. The cat ran out the door as you ran in with the garden hose and is now under the carport licking his/her paws which got wet from the hose dripping on the front steps and is watching the house burn down with vague interest. Yawn. Time to jump on the car, leave wet, muddy footprints on the windshield and take a nap on top of the convertible (after stretching and sharpening claws on it) in the semi-darkness being punctuated by flashing lights from the fire trucks.

It's good to be the cat.

Edited May 24, 2011 by Stella1952

[Candybee]

This is a bit off topic but about 2 yrs ago I read an article from one of the International Guild of Candle Artisan's (IGCA) newsletters re new candle safety standards issued by the National Candle Association (NCA). One of the perks of being an IGCA member is getting up to date info on new candle making techniques and standards.

One of the new candle making standards issued by the NGA involved the size of the neck tab for wicks. The new standard for neck height is 6mm.

Another set of standards came in the form of icons to be used on all warning labels. They were designed to be put on the warning labels along with the written warning.

The 1st one is the symbol for never leave a burning candle unattended:

The 2nd is to keep burning candle away from flammable objects:

The 3rd has children so I assume thats for keep children away from burning candle. But the standard written warning is don't allow children or pets around a burning candle. I don't see a pet in the pick.

There was some discussion about the symbols on these forums. Some didn't like them or thought they were poorly designed while others thought they were great.

Some concurred that on smaller labels at least they may not be room to include the new symbols along with the written warning.

I tried putting them on my labels but in order to include them the symbols had to be reduced so much that the figures were not easily discerned.

Here's the link from NCA's website re the safety warning label:

http://candles.org/safety_label.html

Here's the link re the 1/2 of wax remaining at the bottom. You have to scroll down about halfway thru under "While Burning to see it:

http://candles.org/safety_candles.html

Edited May 24, 2011 by Candybee

[HorseScentS]

Awesome info! Thanks everyone!

[cedar_lea]

More likely scenario: The cat steps over the candle, feels the heat, jumps straight up, yells YIKES, knocks over the candle, which lights the newspaper on the edge of the table on fire, which causes the clean unfolded laundry under the window to catch on fire, which catches the curtains on fire, which catches the papers you printed out about candlemaking and set on the arm of your recliner to torch off, which catches the lampshade on fire, which all causes the heat to suddenly rise in the room until flashover occurs and the whole deal explodes in flames. The cat ran out the door as you ran in with the garden hose and is now under the carport licking his/her paws which got wet from the hose dripping on the front steps and is watching the house burn down with vague interest. Yawn. Time to jump on the car, leave wet, muddy footprints on the windshield and take a nap on top of the convertible (after stretching and sharpening claws on it) in the semi-darkness being punctuated by flashing lights from the fire trucks.

It's good to be the cat

This totally made me laugh thank you. Of course we had a fire scare a couple years ago (candles were not involved) and my brilliant cat says OMG fire -- I'd better run someplace safe like the attic, so I end up on the 911 line saying "I'm not out of the house I'm getting my cat from the attic, but I promise I will be soon"

I always think warning pictures are slightly hillarious. My friend AJ calls the one about drowning on 5 gallon buckets the "Don't put babies in buckets" sticker

Edited May 24, 2011 by cedar_lea
because I broke the quote & I need to fix it

[EricofAZ]

Stella, you're on a roll!

And you're right, cigarettes are not the leading cause of house fires. They are merely the leading statistical source for ignition in house fires. I agree, it is the moron that operates the cigarette outside its normal parameters and fails to follow the warning label on the box. If one used cigarettes for its intended use (make tobacco companies rich and kill the user) then the problem would self correct with lots of rich people left behind.