HELP- new oils separating from wax

[ChandlerWicks]

Ok I just poured these:

French Vanilla Morning 10.5% just to see what happens-Perfect no separation 15oz Madison

Maple Sugar 8% Perfect no separation 12.25oz Status

4627 Wax

185 Added oil

Stirred 2 minutes, then poured. I'll let you know what the result is on Fri. or if anything changes sooner.

[carol k]

You didn't say what temp you heat wax, add oil, pour? You are using a different type of wax than I am. Do you use 10% in all scents, and do you only use GB 415?

I've used gb415 pure soywax since I started. You use a different wax so my temps are no help to you.

Most oils, not all.

Edited August 25, 2011 by carol k

[dianad]

Ok I just poured these:

French Vanilla Morning 10.5% just to see what happens-Perfect no separation 15oz Madison

Maple Sugar 8% Perfect no separation 12.25oz Status

4627 Wax

185 Added oil

Stirred 2 minutes, then poured. I'll let you know what the result is on Fri. or if anything changes sooner.

Just finished pouring tarts. I decided to not screw around with slowly increasing amounts of oils. Just a waste of time and wax. If I'm unable to make tarts like usual, then I don't need to be using these oils.

I made them all like I always have- 8%, 4794 wax, heat 185, stir 1 minute, pour.

Jamaica Me Crazy

Honeysuckle

Lavendar

Blueberry Blast

Juniper Breeze- All of these have a very slight bit of oil film on bottoms of tarts.

Iced Cranberry- oil left in pot, and had to wipe off each tart.

Sugar Cookie and Maple Crunch- LOTS of oil left in pot, and had to wipe off each tart. Craters of oil on bottoms of tarts. What a mess!

So it appears that the ones with vanilla? are the worst offenders. The wax you use is the real gooey one that I read about, right? I'd think that it would be worse than the 4786 that I used last night when it comes to not mixing correctly, but it sounds like you're doing alright. I guess I'll never understand what's wrong.

Thanks to everyone for all your help!!

[dianad]

I've used gb415 pure soywax since I started. You use a different wax so my temps are no help to you.

Most oils, not all.

If your temps and wax are different than mine and of no help to me, then I don't understand how you can make the statement that it is a bad batch of wax, and that there is nothing wrong with the oils. Seems that you aren't able to compare the two. Glad they're working out for you-thanks!

[megandgarr]

Diana, sent you a PM

[IwantItgreen]

Diana, have you tried using other supplier's oils in your wax? Just curious, I haven't ordered any of his oils, but its sounding like a wax problem to me. Did you call him and talk to him about your problem like someone suggested? What did he say?

[Scented]

I don't think it's your wax. You can always call Morris and ask. They know their stuff there and will try to work with you to reach a solution. My thought is like what several have said to you about the heavy oils that have vanilla in them. IMO on them, why not try melting the wax and then adding the oils to your wax at a reasonable temperature ..., maybe even at 180-185. Give these type of oils a chance to bind with the wax. The heavier oils you should be able to cut back on your percentage as is. It takes more to time to mix heavier FOs into paraffin. It is possible that you could try warming the fragrance before putting it in the wax. I have had certain oils from other suppliers that sludge on the bottom in my paraffin. Vybar helped some. Vybar helps to bind fragrance to the wax, but even if you got some to try, I'd ask Morris what to use if you continue to blend a pillar/votive wax with a container wax. There are two types of vybars. One is made for the harder waxes such as a pillar/votive blend and the other is for softer waxes ... i.e. container. Then again, maybe I'm not remembering right, but I thought you were using 4784 with 4786?

As for the solvents in fragrance oil ... I don't think anyone knows exactly what's in there. DPG though cuts fragrances and I do trust Carol K's opinions. If she says they aren't cut, I would believe her.

Vanillas can be difficult to incorporate into wax. Another alternative (and a possible PITA) if you do not want to change your method to accommodate heavier fragrances is use half and add the wax, get it to blend/bind and then add the other half once it is. The temperature of the wax can make a difference when adding vanillas, at least in what I have used or tried to get FOs to marry with the wax. Too much and you won't get it to combine unless you can use some vybar and more wax. If you try an alternate method though I would be interested to read what happens. I don't blend the two together, but if I'm not mistaken, I thought 4786 had difficulty with throw on some fragrances too. Just seemed I remember that from a few years ago.

[dianad]

I don't think it's your wax. You can always call Morris and ask. They know their stuff there and will try to work with you to reach a solution. My thought is like what several have said to you about the heavy oils that have vanilla in them. IMO on them, why not try melting the wax and then adding the oils to your wax at a reasonable temperature ..., maybe even at 180-185. Give these type of oils a chance to bind with the wax. The heavier oils you should be able to cut back on your percentage as is. It takes more to time to mix heavier FOs into paraffin. It is possible that you could try warming the fragrance before putting it in the wax. I have had certain oils from other suppliers that sludge on the bottom in my paraffin. Vybar helped some. Vybar helps to bind fragrance to the wax, but even if you got some to try, I'd ask Morris what to use if you continue to blend a pillar/votive wax with a container wax. There are two types of vybars. One is made for the harder waxes such as a pillar/votive blend and the other is for softer waxes ... i.e. container. Then again, maybe I'm not remembering right, but I thought you were using 4784 with 4786?

As for the solvents in fragrance oil ... I don't think anyone knows exactly what's in there. DPG though cuts fragrances and I do trust Carol K's opinions. If she says they aren't cut, I would believe her.

Vanillas can be difficult to incorporate into wax. Another alternative (and a possible PITA) if you do not want to change your method to accommodate heavier fragrances is use half and add the wax, get it to blend/bind and then add the other half once it is. The temperature of the wax can make a difference when adding vanillas, at least in what I have used or tried to get FOs to marry with the wax. Too much and you won't get it to combine unless you can use some vybar and more wax. If you try an alternate method though I would be interested to read what happens. I don't blend the two together, but if I'm not mistaken, I thought 4786 had difficulty with throw on some fragrances too. Just seemed I remember that from a few years ago.

why not try melting the wax and then adding the oils to your wax at a reasonable temperature ..., maybe even at 180-185. - That is normally the temp that I melt to and add oils. In previous posts, I said that it was only after finding oil floating in the bottom of pour pot, that I started increasing the wax temp, thinking it would help bind the heavier oils. 200 was the highest that I tried, but still wouldn't bind.

I thought you were using 4784 with 4786: For all of these batches, I have not blended 4786 with 4794. Each test has been in a separate type of wax. I do blend the two waxes 50/50 at times, when I am low on one, or just to make the tarts a little easier to melt.

Give these type of oils a chance to bind with the wax. The heavier oils you should be able to cut back on your percentage as is. It takes more to time to mix heavier FOs into paraffin.: Should I expect the same amount of throw, if I have to cut back on percentage with heavy oils? I went down to 5% with the Sugar Cookie, and am melting those tarts this morning--can't smell anything unless I'm standing right over the warmer-also, barely any cold throw. Why would heavy oils from one company give me problems, and oils from others are fine? Guess I'll just have to stick with my regular suppliers-no hassles with any of their oils, and fantastic hot/cold throw.

DPG though cuts fragrances and I do trust Carol K's opinions. If she says they aren't cut, I would believe her.: When she said the oils were fine, and it was a wax problem, I had asked her, so as to make a comparison, about her temps, etc. She replied that she didn't use my type of wax, and those factors didn't matter. To me, that's comparing apples and oranges-kind of a blank statement. If I don't know how she makes/mixes, I can't try her way to see if that would work. No help in that statement-why say anything. That's why I'm here asking for advice, to see what I should do differently.

Vanillas can be difficult to incorporate into wax. The temperature of the wax can make a difference when adding vanillas.: I will try heating the FO itself, and add half at a time. So I should keep the wax at temp (180-185) while blending for a longer amount of time? I'll give it a shot. The way I do it, the oil appears to be mixed in just fine. It's when I get about half way through the pouring, that I start to see the oil accumulating in the bottom of the pot. (This is with small batches, usually I make 10 - 12 ounces at a time.) That leaves me with a mess by the time I pour the last few tarts!

Thank you so much for your advice! Everyone seems to be doing fine, and I've never had this trouble before, so I was mystified as to why this was happening. I've always had success with Peak's, Candle Science, Moonworks, Berts, The Candle Source, MillCreek, and Backwoods oils. Guess I'll stay with what works!

[dianad]

IwantItGreen:

Yes, I did try oils from my regular suppliers, and they worked fine, like they always do! Great smell, no hassles!

Yes, I contacted the owner- he is a great guy! Best customer service I've seen for years- and not just in the candle business. He treats folks like businesses used to, years ago. Luis said if they didn't work out, I could return them. He is also trying to see if he can find an answer to this.

Edited August 25, 2011 by dianad
add

[Scented]

I thought you were using 4784 with 4786: For all of these batches, I have not blended 4786 with 4794. Each test has been in a separate type of wax. I do blend the two waxes 50/50 at times, when I am low on one, or just to make the tarts a little easier to melt.

Got it. I guess I was under the impression you were combining the two to make your tarts.

Give these type of oils a chance to bind with the wax. The heavier oils you should be able to cut back on your percentage as is. It takes more to time to mix heavier FOs into paraffin.: Should I expect the same amount of throw, if I have to cut back on percentage with heavy oils? I went down to 5% with the Sugar Cookie, and am melting those tarts this morning--can't smell anything unless I'm standing right over the warmer-also, barely any cold throw. Why would heavy oils from one company give me problems, and oils from others are fine? Guess I'll just have to stick with my regular suppliers-no hassles with any of their oils, and fantastic hot/cold throw.

That's why you test to find out. It isn't necessarily that more FO makes something stronger, howIever, in the case of Sugar Cookie it is one that I had a problem with from several suppliers. Most of them actually burned so to speak and stayed on the bottom of the pot. This may just be a tough FO to find. I had better luck adding it slowly and warmed. If it is mixing fine halfway through adding it to the wax, then I suspect you're maxing the load the wax can take from that particular supplier for that particular FO or there's a problem with the FO you have. I would still call Morris and seek out their advice on your issue. Maybe they know something we don't.

Why would ois from one company give me problems, and oils from others are fine?

Because there are different grades of oils I expect and different suppliers supplying to the supplier you bought from. Different formulas. And in a few instances you don't know what the supplier you bought from does to their oils. Maybe it is cut, thus making it weak and it if was a weak fragrance to start with, then it becomes weaker. Another reason I mentioned Carol K, because someone else had said maybe the oils were cut and she came forth and said they weren't. I was just saying for anyone else reading that I happen to trust Carol's opinions on fragrances so I would believe that the oils weren't cut from the supplier you got this from. I don't have the oils nor the time to test out this supplier. Unfortunately you ran into a fragrance that is among a few that appear to be difficult for you to add to your waxes. Typically if I have to perform a circus act to get a fragrance to work after a handful of tries to get it to work, I will ditch the fragrance and strike that FO from the company (particularly if the supplier cannot help me suggestions on how to make it work since it apparently does for everyone else.) I hope there's a solution for you issue. 4794 has a good reputation as a votive and tart wax, but maybe it is just incompatible with the components that make up that particular fragrance oil.

[dianad]

Typically if I have to perform a circus act to get a fragrance to work after a handful of tries to get it to work, I will ditch the fragrance and strike that FO from the company: That's just what I've decided. It ain't worth the trouble!!

I was just saying for anyone else reading that I happen to trust Carol's opinions: I was just curious if there would be any difference in reaction, (soy taking the heavier oils any easier than paraffin) between people using a soy based wax, and those like me, who use paraffin. Thought perhaps soy users might do things a little differently, and I could use hints from them to make these oils work for me.

[HorseScentS]

I have heard of a bad batch of 6006 coming from Morris Wax, so maybe it's a bad batch of wax.

[HorseScentS]

What are the solvents and fillers? I can't afford to have oils sitting around that won't work for me. Generally I use, 8% to 10%, depending on the scent, from other suppliers, and have not had any problems. I'll never be able to smell these at 4%!

Why do others report success and I'm having nothing but trouble? Other posters are saying they are using these oils at 9%! So far, it seems that they only work for me at 4% - 5%.

I have to stir very strongly with a wire whisk for at least 2 minutes, while watching the clock, to get my candles to have a good HT. When I made my first batch, I stirred too gently and not for a full 2 minutes, and whilst I could get a decent HT on the warmer, I got zero HT from my candles. So, maybe since you stir only for 1 minute, or if you stir too gently...could that be it?

Edited August 26, 2011 by HorsescentS

[dianad]

Was the bad batch of wax a recent thing? I just bought this last week, but it wasn't the 6006. Next time I order wax, I'm going to get it from Peak's. I know how it has always performed in the past. Then, if these oils still don't work, I'll know that it's not the wax.

As far as stirring, no I don't stir for that long. Seems most things that I read said to stir for 1 minute, so that's what I started doing. Someone else suggested using a wire wisk. So I think I'll try putting some "grunt" in my stirring, as you suggested, and try the 2 minute stir. It sure can't hurt, and may very well make a great improvement in my regular oils! I've never been able to make a candle that I can smell, so maybe this will improve that, too. Maybe I'm just spoiled by using tarts, and am expecting too much from a candle! I've always preferred tarts over candles, because of the quicker and stronger release of scent. Thanks alot!

[HorseScentS]

Was the bad batch of wax a recent thing? I just bought this last week, but it wasn't the 6006. Next time I order wax, I'm going to get it from Peak's. I know how it has always performed in the past. Then, if these oils still don't work, I'll know that it's not the wax.

As far as stirring, no I don't stir for that long. Seems most things that I read said to stir for 1 minute, so that's what I started doing. Someone else suggested using a wire wisk. So I think I'll try putting some "grunt" in my stirring, as you suggested, and try the 2 minute stir. It sure can't hurt, and may very well make a great improvement in my regular oils! I've never been able to make a candle that I can smell, so maybe this will improve that, too. Maybe I'm just spoiled by using tarts, and am expecting too much from a candle! I've always preferred tarts over candles, because of the quicker and stronger release of scent. Thanks alot!

I think the bad batch of 6006 from Morris Wax was a couple of years ago, and I found out about it by reading posts about it, and also a local chandler who used 6006 had a bad experience with it at the same time.

I learned the hard way that those candle making videos that show slow and gentle stirring with a bamboo thingy did NOT work for me! I stir strong, baby, stronggggggg! lol And for at least 2 minutes while watching the sweep second hand of a clock. And I use a heated wire whisk which I set in a baking pan in my warm oven when I'm not using it. Also I heat my FO to about 160.

Edited August 26, 2011 by HorsescentS

[ChrisR]

I can't believe some of the things you guys do to incorporate FO, it boggles my mind!! In the 13-14 years I've been making candles I have never stirred any FO more than a few seconds with a bamboo chopstick and I've used/tried just about every wax on the market. I had a couple oils from BC many years ago that wouldn't mix and I got rid of them and that's the only time that happened. I have several Vanilla and vanilla based oils and they mix just fine, plus a buttercream that's as thick as honey and still no problems mixing. It's not your wax dianad, it's not your stirring 1 min or half an hour, heating the oil, not heating the oil, it's the lousy FO with obvious fillers! Dump it and move on with your better suppliers.

[HorseScentS]

I can't believe some of the things you guys do to incorporate FO, it boggles my mind!! In the 13-14 years I've been making candles I have never stirred any FO more than a few seconds with a bamboo chopstick and I've used/tried just about every wax on the market. I had a couple oils from BC many years ago that wouldn't mix and I got rid of them and that's the only time that happened. I have several Vanilla and vanilla based oils and they mix just fine, plus a buttercream that's as thick as honey and still no problems mixing. It's not your wax dianad, it's not your stirring 1 min or half an hour, heating the oil, not heating the oil, it's the lousy FO with obvious fillers! Dump it and move on with your better suppliers.

Wow, ChrisR! I don't want to be rude, but I just can't believe this. I'm sorry, I know that sounds really rude. And others have tried oils from that same supplier and think they're great, so how can they be bad?

[dianad]

LOL! I'd better get a jug of elbow grease, and put the fear into my wax! I'm a lazy thing, and I've discovered that 1 minute is a l-o-n-g time, when watching that second hand go around! But it 2 is what it takes, hey I'm up for that! Never tried heating the oil- in the microwave or how?

[HorseScentS]

LOL! I'd better get a jug of elbow grease, and put the fear into my wax! I'm a lazy thing, and I've discovered that 1 minute is a l-o-n-g time, when watching that second hand go around! But it 2 is what it takes, hey I'm up for that! Never tried heating the oil- in the microwave or how?

Yes, stirring wax is not for impatient weenies! LOL Stella said she heats her wax by putting it in the pouring pot on her hot plate or electric skillet, or whatever she uses, set on warm. I keep my electric skillet set at 180 to 200, and I put my FO in a small pyrex measuring cup with a loose cover of tin foil on the top, and I keep checking with my thermometer so it doesn't get too hot. But, the idea is to keep the FO from settling to the bottom, so if you put it on the bottom to start with, it might be even harder to stir it up into the higher levels of wax. I pour my FO into the top of my wax.

[dianad]

I must say that I make my tarts they way that ChrisR describes! LOL! Heat it up, dump it into the pot with oil, stir it with my thermometer-(yes!), a minute if it's lucky, and get those dudes poured! Told you I was lazy! All was good till recently! Guess I'll just have to stay with my same old, boring oils! thanks, guys!

[HorseScentS]

I must say that I make my tarts they way that ChrisR describes! LOL! Heat it up, dump it into the pot with oil, stir it with my thermometer-(yes!), a minute if it's lucky, and get those dudes poured! Told you I was lazy! All was good till recently! Guess I'll just have to stay with my same old, boring oils! thanks, guys!

Yeah, but if you stir really good and strong for at least 2 minutes, you can take advantage of the lower price on the Only Scents oils, and you can make candles that have a great HT. But, it's up to you, no pressure. lol

[dianad]

Well, I'm gonna eat my Wheaties in the morning, and beat the crap out of some oils/wax, and see what happens!

[dianad]

ChrisR: I have several Vanilla and vanilla based oils and they mix just fine, plus a buttercream that's as thick as honey and still no problems mixing.

Can you give me a clue where to get the good vanilla based oils, if it's somewhere other than where I already buy from? Please?

[ChrisR]

Wow, ChrisR! I don't want to be rude, but I just can't believe this. I'm sorry, I know that sounds really rude. And others have tried oils from that same supplier and think they're great, so how can they be bad?

I didn't say all his oils are bad, but obviously these are or they would mix with dianad's wax. It occasionally happens with the best suppliers. I personally don't have time to babysit an oil that won't mix, especially with a thousand other oils out there.

[dianad]

ChrisR and HorsescentS: I was just thinking about you two. The last thing I wanted this morning was a mess, but that's what I got! I added the Sugar Cookie into the melt pot, kept the temp at 185-188, stirred, stirred, stirred, STIRRED, AND STIRRED some more - for 5 minutes (HorsescentS, you'd be proud of me!), poured the tarts. Just took them out, and spent the last half hour, wiping off each individual little heart tart, then wiping out all the mold pans. That's it! I'm done! Back to what works for me.

Thanks to all for helping!