FO for 464, or 415

[001]

So I have a case of 464 that I bought when I first started making candles, I wasn't incredibly impressed with the HT in candles so I shelved it and used it in tarts. Long story short I want to learn it a little more about it especially the fragrance oils that will 'work' with it. I have around 6 that I know work in it and they are

CS Cinnamon Buns

CS Strudel & Spice

CS Very Vanilla

CS Pumpkin Pie (this one is light but I have only tested it in a 2" wide candle)

Natures Garden Apple Butter Caramel

Natures Garden Autumn Magic

It seems like the strongest bakery scents work but the florals really don't. One of the reasons I want to do this is I am interested in doing an All American line, Golden Foods is all American grown soy, and C-3 is not. Ecosoya is also US grown but frankly I have not gotten any fo to really throw well in any of their products.

I was thinking of going with 415 but there is so little information about 415 out there I honestly do not know where to start. I could treat it like 464/444 but the one candle I did actually make with it (with CD wicks) it was inconsistent and it sweat FO at 6% mixing FO at 175 and pouring at 160. Tops were OK, a little gun work but nothing too bad. I did notice it did that 'growing' thing soy does occasionally.

I use 8 ounce tins and 24 ounce apothecary jars, though I am considering eliminating the larger jars and keeping it down to 3" or less so I can keep them all single wicked.

Any help would be appreciated, here or in PM.

Thanks!

[Beth]

There's a sticky at the top of this forum on soy/FO combinations.

Have you tried pouring 415 at a lower temp? Most folks here pour around 100°, or when it begins to get filmy/almost slushy.

[Mountain Soy Candle]

As far as 415 goes I agree with Beth. You should be pouring alot cooler for nicer tops. You have to play wit your temps to see what kind of tops are acceptable for you. You can get semi-smooth tops or sand texture tops (thats what I call it) but you have to test it. This eliminates the heating gun step. Stirring is a must if you decide to pour alot cooler like under 100 degrees. If you dont stir you get alot of wax sticking to the sides and bottom of your pouring pots and your jars wont be as full as you wanted. Sure you can reheat and wait longer but that another time consuming step. I use the 1 oz of weighed f/o per lb method and 1 dye chip and never have had any sweating issues. I do not use any additives either. I love this wax.

I started using 415 over a year ago and dont sell any but used 7 cases so far and havent thought of switching.

I have read until my head hurt all from info found on these boards. Do a search for gb415.

HTH

Mike

Edited November 16, 2011 by Mountain Soy Candle

[001]

The ones up top seem to be directed more towards c3, I have or have tried probably 50% of those scents and they for the most part work fantastically in c3 but fall flat in 464 unless they are overwicked. With a 1.5" melt pool they do throw but the 1/2-1/3" melt pool does nothing... I guess I will just pour the whole line and work from there. It is daunting to attempt to test 130 scents... I only want around 25 strong ones for the all American line. It will be going into a small shop that is all American made stuff, from gadgets to clothing. It is an awesome idea and will be set up in a high traffic area around the beginning of the year.

As for 415, the sweat happened at around 80º while at a show. I will start again with 415, I guess my reservations are on how they actually store. I just don't want it to go to the sandy looking top like you said Maybe I will test some 464 415 mixes? idk. I guess I should budget some $ and get testing. I'll figure something out.

[Beth]

I have mixed a little 6006 with 415 & it smoothed out the tops pretty well.

[Ravens]

If I had to choose between the 464 and the 415 for HT, the 415 would get my vote. I found NG's Autumn Magic to be a light thrower, but perhaps it's just me; I like FOs so strong to make me pass out, lol *faint*

From what I remember, the FOs that threw well in the 464 include: Lemongrass, Sex on the beach, Wildberry mousse, Love spell, English garden (all from CandleScience), Evening breeze (Mr. Missy), and Honey patchouli (or is it Patchouli honey?) sold by Elements.

With the 415, nearly all FOs threw very well.

HTH

[jackbenimble]

I use 464 and have never had issues with HT in any of my candles. Some may not not you down on the floor but they do throw.

[001]

You know I was just thinking... all I'm looking for is a nice top when they are out for sale... I wonder if I can just pour, cool, and re-pour (like 1/8") with 464 (which has excellent cold throw normally) This way I could have the even, smooth tops but the performance of 415. Still all American.

Beth, I have considered this, and I have done c3 and 4630 in a 90/10 ratio to control morphing, but switched when I went dyeless, I liked it, it burnt well it would probably do the same thing here... and 90% American grown is not bad, I think that could work.

I could just scrap it all though and just say that is American Made, because it is... just with wax farmed in central and south America. Or mix in like 10% 415 and say made with American Soy...

[001]

I use 464 and have never had issues with HT in any of my candles. Some may not not you down on the floor but they do throw.

Do you double wick? I noticed at your show table they were wide, and I believe I remeber seeing a double wick. I have found with some scents double wicked candles throw better (the movement of the wax helps it) I wonder if I can double up to get them to push some scent out.

[jackbenimble]

Do you double wick? I noticed at your show table they were wide, and I believe I remeber seeing a double wick. I have found with some scents double wicked candles throw better (the movement of the wax helps it) I wonder if I can double up to get them to push some scent out.

Yes I do double wick my jars so that may be why they have a good HT.

[Stella1952]

I was thinking of going with 415 but there is so little information about 415 out there I honestly do not know where to start.

There is a HUGE amount of information in the threads here as well as the archives about GW 415. Use the Google site search tool for best results.

Information about EZ Soy is applicable since that is a private brand of 415. This wax is NOT picky about FOs, however both 464 & 415, as soy waxes, are picky about wicking. You must get the wicking straight to get the best throw from soy waxes. 464 is a very good wax that many people use successfully. The sticky up top is only a guideline... your mileage may vary considerably from what people have contributed there because of differences in ingredients, wicking, container used, etc.

With a 1.5" melt pool they do throw but the 1/2-1/3" melt pool does nothing

If we are talking MP depth here, 1.5 inches is ridiculously overwicked. The MP depth should be around .5-.75" for good HT and efficient burn. Judging the actual MP depth is difficult with soy candles because they have a soft-bottomed MP. The MP depth is judged by the clear liquid wax and not the soft, semi-liquid portion.

"Sweating" or syneresis can occur with any candle depending on the temperature & humidity. Higher FO loads will "sweat" more easily but this is not the sole cause of this phenomenon. Moving candles from a cool storage location to a warm area (or vice versa) can cause this. If the FO is not well-incorporated into the wax (stirring, stirring, stirring) is another contributing factor. Stirring is very important to keep the temperature of the wax uniform throughout the melting pot and pouring pot; otherwise undesirable phase crystal formations can be encouraged and more frosting and texture issues will be the result. Soy wax candles in general are best used "fresh." While they perform well even a year or more after pouring, frosting can be an issue, particularly if the wax wax not handled carefully when poured and/or the storage environment temperature varies. Soy wax does best when stored in a cool, dry location away from direct heat, sunlight and moisture. While soy wax manufacturers list storage temps as 65°F-85°F, and claim that exposure to temps for a short time over 90°F will cause no harm to the product, I have found that keeping the wax and, especially, finished candles stored on the cooler side (65°F-75°F) to be best. Warmer temps harm soy wax candles far more than does cooler temps. Keeping them stored in even temperatures is far better than temps which fluctuate within the ideal storage range.

A word about the "All-American" line... many components of candles are not produced in the US. Wicks manufactured by WEDO (LX, RRD, ECO, CSN) & Heinz (CD, CDN, PK, PKN) come from Germany. That leaves you with having to find your wicks from an American braiding company, such as Atkins & Pearce. Where is the cotton and other components of those wicks grown? What is the country of origin of the wicking wax used to prime the wicks? While many FOs may be manufactured in the US, do you know if the component ingredient chemicals are US made or are they imported? MANY essential oils used in the manufacture of FOs are grown, processed and imported from other countries. What about the glassware you are using... is it manufactured in the US or in Mexico, China, etc.?

I hope that you will choose to manufacture the best candles here in the US that you can rather than concentrating on the country of origin of the candle's components. "Made in the USA" is a proud label that does not mean that every molecule of the product bearing that label is made, produced and/or grown in the USA - it means that product is manufactured in the USA.

Edited November 16, 2011 by Stella1952

[rjdaines]

I hope that you will choose to manufacture the best candles here in the US that you can rather than concentrating on the country of origin of the candle's components. "Made in the USA" is a proud label that does not mean that every molecule of the product bearing that label is made, produced and/or grown in the USA - it means that product is manufactured in the USA.

A big two thumbs up!!!

[001]

I did search for 415 and got a few threads but none really conclusive. I will search EZ Soy though and read those.

I agree 100% that a melt pool of 1.5" is way over wicked, what I was saying is that when it is that way, it throws well. I wick for a 1/2" mp at 4 hours 1/3" during long burns (over six hours)

I agree Made in America is a very powerful thing, and I proudly proclaim it at every show I do, and all over my website.

As for the all American, with c3 I cannot say that it supports American Farmers, and cargill, as a company has some questionable business practicies. Especially in their palm production in central America, they claim they are committed to sustainable palm production but it is PR. They (allegedly) take part in corrupt activities to push out their competition, and re-zone protected area to expand their oil production down there while keeping a "sustainable" label. This is something the buyers, I know are against so with Golden Brands making their soy from US grown soy, it is the best option. This is why I personally won't make products with high percentages of palm products in it. I know most of Cargill's sources are from the US and Mexico. From what I understand very little comes from central America or protected areas. I live in a very progressive area, Cargill and Monsanto are well known. I sell a lot of tarts because they are made exclusively out of US grown soy (464/PB blend) and I offer re-fills on shells, and will recycle them for people. I also give them other ways to use the shells which sparks interest also.

Regardless I believe I will go "back to the drawing board" and see how to push this project forward. Thanks all!

Edited November 17, 2011 by 001

[Lorelei]

I use 415 and pour very low temps just when the wax starts to get a tiny bit cloudy, there is that moment....then I pour.

I've used up to 6-8 percent FO and never had sweating, but then again I store my candles in a very controlled area. We are mostly almost desert dry here.

I have a test shelf of candles. I have many that I made over a year ago, still burn well, still have great HT, still look wonderful.

The only fragrances that I seem to have any problems with are fragrances like Creme brulee and high vanilla concentrated fragrances. Sometimes the chemical composition of the fragrance changes and the wax composition seems to change after months and months.