jennie12 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Hi. I'm using this 9 oz. straight-sided jar from Fillmore: http://www.fillmorecontainer.com/Candles/9-oz-Straight-Sided-Jar-CT.htmOnce it burns down to about the halfway point, I get a very jumpy flame on every wick I've tried, including a few different sizes of Eco, LX, HTP and CDN. I've also burned them in several different locations to make sure it wasn't just a draft in a particular area. I like the size and look of this jar, but I'm wondering if there's just something about its shape that affects air movement and cause this unsteadiness. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeanie353 Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 Hi. I'm using this 9 oz. straight-sided jar from Fillmore: http://www.fillmorecontainer.com/Candles/9-oz-Straight-Sided-Jar-CT.htmOnce it burns down to about the halfway point, I get a very jumpy flame on every wick I've tried, including a few different sizes of Eco, LX, HTP and CDN. I've also burned them in several different locations to make sure it wasn't just a draft in a particular area. I like the size and look of this jar, but I'm wondering if there's just something about its shape that affects air movement and cause this unsteadiness. Any thoughts? Thanks in advance.Not sure which wax you are using. I am not using your type jar but can tell you I've been working with several paraffin/parasoy waxes. Can get VG HT with a couple of those wicks but got the jumpy flames just as you are describing on two types of jars....keepsake and madison.That type of wick burning wasn't going to be alright with me so kept testing wicks. What I did just find is paper wicks, PK and Premier are doing much better than most of the ones you listed above. Did get a fairly good burn with Eco but lost HT in the waxes I'm working with.If you are using soy I am working with C3 and for me the CD/CDN line is not working due to the jumpy flames. Eco does burn nice but lost some HT again.Am now doing first test with 415. CDN is doing pretty good...so far. But this is only burn #1 so that could change as it gets farther down.HTH maybe a little. Good Luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjdaines Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 A lot of us here are having the same issue and are searching for an answer. I've seem commercial candle do the same thing. I can burn an pillar candle and a container side by side and the pillar's flame is rock solid and steady while the container is dancing a merry jig. This suggests that it might be the air flow within the container but, then again, changing wicks does seem to help some people. I can't give you a solution at this point. I have also tested adding soy to paraffin and it does seems to help but that changes my wax formula and changes HT. I will test the premier wicks and the ECOs but I'd rather have good HT than a steady flame. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JanetsCandles Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 I was having similar issues when test burning a palm wax jar with straight sides using an HTP wick. I trimmed it down further than I normally would after extinguishing it again and had no more trouble with jumpy flame on this particular candle. Lit it the second day after trimming to my usual length, same issue. Extinguished and trimmed a bit more off, again it stopped. I'm not saying it will work for everyone, but at least on this blend of wax/wick/FO it solved it. And for anyone wondering, the starting wick length was 1/4". I have to trim it further down than that. Very strange. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjdaines Posted February 12, 2012 Share Posted February 12, 2012 The pattern of heating in a container must be very complex and changes all the time as the wax level drops. We seem to have little trouble when the candle is new and the flame is high in the container, a third to halfway down the dancing beings. The bottom of the container is cool the top is hot and the sides can be either hot or cooler depending on flame movement. It does not surprise me that this happens and once it starts, it may make itself worse and the flame is not definitely not symmetrical. Trimming the wick essentially is reducing the burn rate and heating, same as me adding soy or someone else adding CO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck_35550 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Dancing is caused by impurities in the wax that interfere with the consumption by the wick and eventually the wick breaks down due to acids in th soy. I like the cdn wicks best in my soy blend but sometimes an fo is heavy and it clogs the wick and causes it to flicker. IMHOSteve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjdaines Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 Dancing is caused by impurities in the wax that interfere with the consumption by the wick and eventually the wick breaks down due to acids in th soy. I like the cdn wicks best in my soy blend but sometimes an fo is heavy and it clogs the wick and causes it to flicker. IMHOSteveWhile I agree that what you say can be a cause there must be more to it than that. I can take a pillar and burn it on the counter and the flame is straight and true. I then take the pillar and put it into a glass container or glass sleeve and not the flame dances. Remove the pillar from the container and the flame doesn't dance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chefmom Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I too have this going on. Both pillars and containers do this when they burn down. I have a special "lid" thing that was given to me years ago that makes the flame rock solid. It looks like the smell jelly lid with a hole in the center and a flower pattern punched in the metal, but mine have no threads to screw the lid on a jar. If I use this lid the flame is perfect and solid, take it off and the little dance happens.My husband gave me a long, engineer answer about air flow and heat. He's an air flow/HVAC technician. I no longer consider that little flicker dance a problem unless the scent throw is lost.In my square pillars, I now wick them to burn a tunnel down because I like the hurricane effect and the flickering is nice, especially in a dim lit room. I'm doing round pillar testing now, but I don't want them to tunnel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeanie353 Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I too have this going on. Both pillars and containers do this when they burn down. I have a special "lid" thing that was given to me years ago that makes the flame rock solid. It looks like the smell jelly lid with a hole in the center and a flower pattern punched in the metal, but mine have no threads to screw the lid on a jar. If I use this lid the flame is perfect and solid, take it off and the little dance happens.Would these be the similar as those that fit over the top of the container that come in rusty, black, etc. with a pattern cut out? Used to use those for prim deco on jars years ago and think I may have some stored away around here somewhere. If I remember they were about $1 each. Am not sure if the market could support a $1 increase on candle container prices right now but sure would save my sanity if these were the same type lids and solved the problem making many wick types usable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonshine Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I 100% LOVE chef moms husbands answer- its the only logical explanation... I just finished testing straight (nothing added) 464 in the 8 ounce square mason jars with CD CDN HTP LX COTTON and this wierd type I got a sample from wicks unlimited- I will have to look on the bag for the type (supposed to be good for soy and beeswax) and EVERY one of them start steady and the then the dance begins a quarter of the way thruSame wax WITH FO - same jar and same thing BUT the SAME batch in a travel tin... Steady all the way thru- so impurities in the wax or some FO doesn't make sense to me in this caseThe glass does not get hot - no mushroom and great HT with the scented ones- so if it has to dance... I am going to let it! LOLI did try my smelly jelly topper and it DOES stop the dancing- I believe yank sells these to for their jars but I didn't care for hot the lid gotThis is soooo frustrating Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck_35550 Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 I have never had a customer bring back a candle because the flame flickered (say it fast 10 times). Whether it is a combination of all those possibllities or not, the flicker is not that big a deal. Under and over wicked are different subjects, as you have noted and testing different wick structures is a reasonable way to try and get the most bang for your buck from the fo and wax. Watch anything with a flame and you will see that it can be affected by drafts, build up within the wick from solids that are in the fuel and the configuration of the jar and wick. IMHOSteve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonshine Posted February 14, 2012 Share Posted February 14, 2012 Thank you Steve-That is what I wanted to hear... its no big deal so long as its wicked properly- I have been having anxiety over this for way to long! LOLThanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EricofAZ Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 My best guess is to filter the wax. I use these. http://www.webstaurantstore.com/10-paper-grease-filter-cone-50-box/121100.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chefmom Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 My best guess is to filter the wax. I use these. http://www.webstaurantstore.com/10-paper-grease-filter-cone-50-box/121100.htmlOOoooo, that would be cool for making jelly!!Totally off topic.................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuck_35550 Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 Ooooh I like that Eric. You know, the big companies ship this wax from all over the place and some distributors blend their own and the wax is gonna get nasty at some point. How often do you change the filter?Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stella1952 Posted February 16, 2012 Share Posted February 16, 2012 Dancing is caused by impurities in the wax that interfere with the consumption by the wick and eventually the wick breaks down due to acids in th soy. I like the cdn wicks best in my soy blend but sometimes an fo is heavy and it clogs the wick and causes it to flicker. IMHOI concur with Steve on this.I can take a pillar and burn it on the counter and the flame is straight and true. I then take the pillar and put it into a glass container or glass sleeve and not the flame dances.Comparing the burn of a pillar to a container is not equivalent. The air currents make all the difference. Straight sided containers don't burn the same as ones with narrow mouths, etc. FO and FO load make a difference. The type of dye used and the amount makes a difference. FOs and dyes can be considered "contaminants" of the wax as well as stuff that gets in there from the manufacturer or supplier. Storing wax tightly closed in its original packaging or in a sealed container helps prevent contamination on my end. I filter the wax as it is poured into the container to remove any detritus (dust, cat hair, etc.) that may have found its way into the pot. Wicks can absorb excess moisture from the air which may cause flickering. There are LOTS of reasons flickering and dancing can happen. You have to painstakingly eliminate each possible source until you find what's causing the issue with YOUR candle system.If a wick flickers for a few moments. I don't worry about it. If it flickers or dances continuously at any point, I find the source of the issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonshine Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 (edited) So when I did My test with just plain old wax and wicks- it is safe to say it probably the wax... My wicks stay sealed in plastic in a room with a dehumidifierSo if I try filtering the wax and they still dance- then what? Because they all continually dance in the jar with all sorts of Different wicksAnd they danced the same with FO - it didn't get any worse or better Edited February 17, 2012 by moonshine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjdaines Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 So when I did My test with just plain old wax and wicks- it is safe to say it probably the wax... My wicks stay sealed in plastic with a room with a dehumidifierSo if I try filtering the wax then what? Because they all continually dance in the jar with all sorts of wicksAnd they danced the same with FO - it didn't get any worse or betterI don't believe it is the wax from what I see, it's the air flow into the container. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonshine Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 This weekend I am going to do the same with straight up C3 and 415 and 135 and see - it would be hard to accept its the wax or wick if those dance also.... What did I get myself into? LOLBrilliant idea to start making candles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jennie12 Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 What did I get myself into? LOLBrilliant idea to start making candlesmy thoughts exactly...thanks for all the replies about this. much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjdaines Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Have you also noticed that the flame doesn't jump until the container heats up? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonshine Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Have you also noticed that the flame doesn't jump until the container heats up?That is exactly when it all starts... I use the square mason so the first 3 hour burn is perfect- steady as can bethe second burn a tiny bit of swayingthe third and fourth it all starts... its into the container and heating up more and moreI am pouring the other 3 waxes today (my daughter had her wisdom teeth out Friday so I was to busy playing nurse) and that will be the determination that is HAS to be the jar and not the wax (impurities) or wicksI dont have the filters on hand but may try a coffee filter and see what happens Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjdaines Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 That is exactly when it all starts... I use the square mason so the first 3 hour burn is perfect- steady as can bethe second burn a tiny bit of swayingthe third and fourth it all starts... its into the container and heating up more and moreI am pouring the other 3 waxes today (my daughter had her wisdom teeth out Friday so I was to busy playing nurse) and that will be the determination that is HAS to be the jar and not the wax (impurities) or wicksI dont have the filters on hand but may try a coffee filter and see what happensGood luck with that filter experiment. Now think about those toppers some containers have and how it stops the dancing. Nothing to do with filtering the wax but the toppers do influence how the air flows into and out of the container. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeanie353 Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Good luck with that filter experiment. Now think about those toppers some containers have and how it stops the dancing. Nothing to do with filtering the wax but the toppers do influence how the air flows into and out of the container.After all the waxes I've tested over here with all the available wicks, have also come to the conclusion it is a jar issue. Possibly a jar/wick type issue as some do burn much better than others. Am going to look around for the toppers I had years ago for prim deco on jars. If I can't find them I'll order a few because I'm getting nowhere here since my CBL130 stopped having HT with Eco wicks. That combo did work in keepsake jars for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjdaines Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 After all the waxes I've tested over here with all the available wicks, have also come to the conclusion it is a jar issue. Possibly a jar/wick type issue as some do burn much better than others. Am going to look around for the toppers I had years ago for prim deco on jars. If I can't find them I'll order a few because I'm getting nowhere here since my CBL130 stopped having HT with Eco wicks. That combo did work in keepsake jars for me.I assume you have tried other wicks, I've found CD and HTP work well in parasoy blends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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